Peter A Clarke

Crikey has been copping flak for choosing to publish audio snippets of the extraordinary staff meeting at The Age last week. The Age Independence Committee, and other staff, are not pleased with us.

Here are our reasons for deciding to publish. There is room for disagreement, of course, but we didn’t make the decision lightly.

First, while it was not a public meeting, it was hardly a purely private conversation. Had this been a meeting between a handful of people, then the expectation of privacy would probably have outweighed any public interest considerations. As it was, more than 235 people were there, and they were discussing a matter of considerable public concern – the status and future of journalism at The Age, and independent journalism at Australia’s “quality” newspapers more broadly. The public interest considerations, we thought, outweighed any limited expectation of privacy.

Second, we decided to focus on the words of editor, Andrew Jaspan. All journalists are public figures to some extent, editors in particular. They therefore have a reduced right to privacy in respect of their public roles. All the more so for an editor in chief of a major metropolitan newspaper.

Third, some argued with us that publishing the audio tapes would be counterproductive to the aims of The Age staff, in that it would inflame management. We doubt this is the case. Staff can hardly pass a motion like this without inflaming management, and the publication of the audio can hardly change that much. But in any case, this is not an argument journalists can properly consider. Imagine a leak from the Labor Party in the lead up to the election. Would a journalist be right to not publish because doing so might damage the party’s election prospects? Of course not.

We are journalists too. We have many friends at The Age. Our sympathies are inevitably caught up in these events, but it is our job to try and get the story as completely as we can, rather than to self censor in an attempt to influence the outcome of events.

Finally, if an Age journalist got a newsworthy audio recording of a shareholders meeting, or a union meeting closed to the public, or of the closed part of a political party’s national conference, would they really not use it? We doubt it.

We think this is analogous.

Stop the presses! A judge admits his earlier ex tempore (off the cuff to the occasional lay observer) comments to an application is wrong. Actually that is harsh. Judges and the occasional Magistrate with the wisdom that only quiet reflection can bring do change their minds. And why not. Pleadings and discovery fights can be every bit as complex as a hearing. How his Honour did it is a linguistic work of art: Read the rest of this entry »

Biota v Glaxo will be one of the big court room battles this year. It is in the commercial list though it was issued in May 2004.  That sort of progress is long even by the n Read the rest of this entry »

Malcolm Fraser had a very very late mid life crisis.  He didn’t ditch the wife, tried to hang out at live bands and relive a lost youth or even toke on a joint or three (though his ramblings might suggest otherwise).  His mid life crisis was political.  He went all lefty and suddenly discovered human rights issues, womens issues and developed a Central European anti Americanism that made him the darling of the commentariat.  Now the likes of Phillip Adams can point to Malcolm as proof that not all conservatives are bad.  Malcolm can fill out an invitation list where a token conservative is the done thing.  Fred Chaney, Bruce Baird and Marise Payne have sage company.

I guess you can’t blame the mutt.  He was turfed out in his 50s tried his hand at business (sort of) and didn’t really make a mark.  He wasn’t rich enough to live the life of the rural squatocracy and he wasn’t connected (or liked) enough to get a few comfy directorships and spend his leisure hours at the Melbourne Club.  One option, the Liberal Party, had enough of him.  He showed not much loyalty and when he had the main job ignored party principles and left it to the ALP to put in place all the wide ranging reforms of the early eighties.  The party made its feeling felt when he tried for the presidency of the Party at the 50th anniversary conference in Al bury.  I was there and as Fraser approached the crowds parted.  There was a 10 meter exclusion zone around him.  He pulled out just before the election.  I felt a bit sorry for him being treated like typhoid Mary.  The Party should have looked after him better. 

But on Zimbabwe he should should be put on the stocks for a decade.  He shoe horned Mugabe into power.  Fraser says Mugabe should have quit after the first decade.    Yeah right.  He forgets The Gukurahundi  which involved a massacre of 10,000 – 30,000 Matabeleland and Midlands by a North Korean trained brigade.   Mugabe forced out Nkoma and just applied all the authoritarian tricks he acquired as a maoist in his pre Presidential days.  Mugabe is a progeny of Fraser’s mispent time as a failed world leader.  Mugabe was rotten when in opposition, he started out an authoritarian as President and just graduated to sociopath over time.  That Fraser can give himself an out for his complicity in the sickening mess that is Zimbabwe by saying that Mugabe was good for the first ten years shows him to be a second rate intellect with no moral compass.  He makes me sick!

For all reviews by the Federal Government it seems that the Attorney General/Justice portfolio has got off relatively unscathed.  That must be a hgute disappointment to the glorified time and motion experts at the various consulting firms.   Attorney General McClelland has been remarkably restrained in the media releases this year – a total of 8 and most of them department driven. 

The AG posted a transcript on the offical web site describing the “legal knots crowding the in tray”…

Here are all the tough challenges:

SAME SEX COUPLES – DISCRIMINATION (A Fran Kelly favourite – soft, left and social policy)

FRAN KELLY: Equal rights for same sex couples, military surveillance of Japanese whalers, how to incorporate the recognition of indigenous Australians into our constitution and the fallout from the Haneef affair. These are just some of the legal knots crowding the in-tray of new federal Attorney-General Robert McClelland. He’s only been in the job two days. Robert McClelland, good morning.

ROBERT McCLELLAND: Good morning, Fran.

JOURNALIST: Now that the new Opposition leader Brendan Nelson has supported equal rights for same sex couples there’s nothing stopping Labor in fulfilling its election pledge to end the discrimination faced by same sex couples and amend those 58 laws that the Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Commission identified. How soon will the Labor Government move on this?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: As soon as we possibly can. We need to do it in a comprehensive way. I mean, in one sense some 58 laws have been identified and, in fact, it’s more realistically the case that probably there are additional laws that require amendment. If you’re going to do this it’s worth doing it properly, so we’ll be taking advice on both the whole range of laws but also the appropriate mechanisms.

JOURNALIST: Those laws that HREOC has identified deal mainly with financial equality. Labor doesn’t support gay marriage, it doesn’t support IVF for gays, it doesn’t support gay adoption. Aren’t these discriminatory practices too? Why doesn’t Labor support those?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: Well, we’re basically taking one step at a time. We’re basically committed to removing discrimination. The Labor Party in Opposition supported in federal Parliament legislation defining marriage as being between a male and a female, in the traditional sense, however, clearly we intend to sit down with state and territory governments to work through hopefully a national – a nationally consistent method of registration that the state and territories may adopt. We think that would be desirable and clearly that’s going to be a live issue in the ACT, we anticipate.

JOURNALIST: It looks like it’s going to be…

ROBERT McCLELLAND: In the coming months.

JOURNALIST: …a live issue very soon in the ACT because the ACT Government has indicated it wants to have another crack at introducing its civil unions for same sex couples. Are you suggesting that the federal Labor Government won’t intervene to block that as the Howard Government has and, in fact, you’d support all states looking at something like civil unions?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: I’m sitting down with Simon Corbell on Friday. I have considerable respect for him. He’s a very decent – a very decent man and also an intelligent man. I haven’t seen the text of what he’s proposing but I’ll certainly be putting to him, look, it’s in everyone’s interest that there’s a nationally consistent standard. Some states already have a registration process, basically sitting down, looking at what’s already been done, and looking at other areas where we can – where states have got other intentions and just trying to develop a nationally consistent framework. I mean, I think in this area it’s unseemly for there to be effectively tourism based on what state or territory has more lenient or differing registration or ceremonial processes. I don’t think that is a desirable way that we should approach the issue.

JOURNALIST: Robert McClelland, one decision where you might have to act on – almost immediately is the whole issue of whaling. Japanese whalers are on their way now to the Antarctic for this season’s hunt. Humpback whales will be targeted. Labor has promised sea and air military surveillance of that hunt, to gather evidence to take the whalers to international courts. When will that surveillance start?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: Well, these are issues that, well, not so much me, I’m getting advice on the legal issues but certainly my colleagues are obtaining advice on from their own departments, but from a legal perspective I’ve already requested advice in respect to the potential for international legal action and also looking at one domestic case that’s before the Federal Court of Australia as to the appropriate course of action in light of submissions made by my predecessor, Philip Ruddock. So these are issues immediately under active – active consideration.

JOURNALIST: What about sending the navy out though to at least start the surveillance? I mean, presumably you’re gathering advice on the likelihood of success in the International Court of Justice. Former Environment Minister Malcolm Turnbull had said all the advice the Government had is that that could fail, very well fail, which could backfire, could give a cloak of legitimacy to Japan’s actions, but that aside, is the Australian Government preparing to send the military out to at least keep surveillance, the navy out, rather?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: Well, I’ve, as you’d expect, I’ve had some discussions with Joel Fitzgibbon, the Minister for Defence. I know this is a matter that he is obtaining advice on but clearly he would be the best person to discuss that issue, in light of the advice he’s received. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on that.

JOURNALIST: Are you getting legal advice about the likelihood of success in the International Court of Justice?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: Obviously these are very complex. There’s been effectively four major streams of advice that have been presented in respect to the issue. We’re certainly getting expertise, legal expertise to draw together existing work but also looking at – looking at obviously the potential for future action. So it’s complex but we’re committed to do it and there’s some very talented people looking at the issue.

TERRORISM (Another Fran Kelly favourite – and one that is shared by most lawyers)

JOURNALIST: Robert McClelland, obviously Australia’s terrorism laws will be a big issue for you over the next three years. In the more immediate, the case of Dr Mohamed Haneef, Labor had suggested, had been pushing for some sort of judicial inquiry and I think you’re still getting advice on perhaps a broader inquiry, but will Labor rule in or out Dr Haneef receiving compensation and having his visa reinstated?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: Again, in terms of the immigration issues, that’s again not my call. In respect to issues of compensation, I mean, I think you’ve got to take all these things one step at a time. I, again, have obviously been speaking to agencies within my portfolio area and I must say, as they’ve pointed out, you’d be naïve not to have internally reviewed what’s occurred in respect to the Haneef case so I’m in the process of gathering together what those internal reviews have revealed or suggested, the extent to which practices have been modified and so forth.

• For a minister that comes across as down to earth and direct his dodging and ducking with weasel words like the above does not fill one with confidence.

In terms of any issues of culpability, obviously they’re things that we want to get a handle on and ensure that any either representations or acknowledgments are soundly based. Obviously we need to look at that.

JOURNALIST: Robert McClelland, mindful that you have to go and catch a plane, there’s lots of other issues to bring to your attention but just could I ask you briefly, some time in the next three years, I understand the Government is planning to introduce a landmark piece of legislation, a charter enshrining the rights and responsibilities of the nation’s legislators. Is this a bill of rights or something less than that? What will this do?

ROBERT McCLELLAND: We’re committed to a process of public consultation. Again, insofar as the rights and perhaps even obligations, would be those of the Australian public. It’s something that we’ve committed to engaging with the public on but certainly from own perspective, I do think it’s odd that we, as one of the only western democracies, don’t have such a charter of rights. That’s a view. But we’re committed to getting the public’s view on it. Certainly we’re looking at a framework that refers to government action, that is legislation, regulations and administrative action, rather that which applies to citizens or corporations but I think it most certainly is something that we should and intend to engage the public on and canvass public views on the matter.

• So when does the public consultation start?
• Seeing is believing. It is hard to believe this govenrment would want to have the judiciary muscle up any more than the last government did.  But if it is going to happen it needs to be done quickly.   

JOURNALIST: Robert McClelland, we look forward to part two of the interview with the Attorney-General. Thanks very much for joining us.

ROBERT McCLELLAND: That’s my pleasure.

• Why wouldn’t he be happy.  As interviews go it is soft

JOURNALIST: Australia’s new Attorney-General, Robert McClelland.

A few areas of interest to our AG might be:

• Reviewing the ridiculousClassification (Publications, Films and Computer Games) Act 1995  and its enforcement arm, the Office of Film and Literature Classification.
• Giving real teeth to the Privacy Act so that breaches by data collectors can be criminalised. It would also be useful to educate people and companies that the Privacy act is not a convenient of denying material.  BOPA (Blame it on the privacy Act) is the common refrain by those who want to avoid transparency.
• Increasing resources to the Federal and Family Courts
• following through on Judicial Appointments review that means something.

The Victorian Court of Appeal in Leek v XY considered the standard of proof in a civil claim of assault. In this case the allegation was sexual assault by the defendant/appellant against the plaintiff/respondent. There seems to be a steady but thankfully small trickle of cases involving health professionals who have difficulty in keeping their interest in female patients professional.

REDLICH JA gave the substantive judgment.

On the standard of proof he said:

9 In civil litigation the standard of proof is proof on the balance of probabilities…The balance of probabilities remains the standard of proof even where serious or criminal allegations are made. The learned trial judge quoted the following passage from the joint judgment of Mason CJ, Brennan, Deane and Gaudron JJ in Neat Holdings Pty Ltd v Karajan Holdings Pty Ltd:

The ordinary standard of proof required of a party who bears the onus in civil litigation in this country is on the balance of probabilities. That remains so even where the matter to be proved involves criminal conduct or fraud. The strength of evidence necessary to establish a fact or facts on the balance of probabilities may vary according to the nature of what it is sought to be proved. Thus authoritative statements have often been made to the effect that clear[5] or cogent[6] or strict[7] proof is necessary “where so serious a matter as fraud is to be found”.[8] Statements to that effect should not, however, be understood as directed to the standard of proof. Rather, they should be understood as merely reflecting a conventional perception that members of our society do not ordinarily engage in fraudulent or criminal conduct[9] and a judicial approach that a court should not lightly make a finding that, on the balance of probabilities, a party to civil litigation has been guilty of such conduct.[10]

10 …..Generalisations about the need for ‘clear and cogent proof’ in cases involving competing and mutually inconsistent evidence should not be understood as affecting the civil standard of proof required.[11] Referring again to the joint judgment in Neat:

The most that can validly be said in such a case is that the trial judge should be conscious of the gravity of the allegations made on both sides when reaching his or her conclusion.[12]

11 The requirement of ‘clear or cogent proof’ described where criminal conduct or fraud is alleged relates to the strength of the evidence that is necessary to establish such a fact on the balance of probabilities… That is to say the nature of the issue affects the process by which reasonable satisfaction is attained… So where allegations of a serious sexual nature are made in civil proceedings, due regard must be given to the considerations mentioned in Briginshaw requiring the exercise of caution and careful scrutiny of the evidence proffered in proof of the allegation…
12 …. applied the civil standard while recognising that he was obliged to take into account, as an important factor, the improbability of a grossly improper sexual advance towards a vulnerable psychiatric patient by a well credentialed and experienced psychiatrist. …

In short the Court needs to put the plaintiff’s evidence under an atomic microscope and should let it be tested strongly before accepting it.

On the issue of prior consistent statements his Honour pithily summed up the law, as he is becoming very good at doing, thus:

23 It is settled law that a witness, whether a party or not, may not support their testimony by proof that on some prior occasion they made a statement to the same effect. There are two well recognised exceptions. The first, with which we are not presently concerned, is in the case of sexual offences where evidence of timely complaint is admissible, not as evidence of proof of the commission of the offence, but to rebut consent and negative the possibility that the charge is an afterthought. The second arises in any civil or criminal trial in which a suggestion of recent invention is made so that evidence of a prior consistent statement may be admitted to rebut the suggestion that the witnesses testimony is a recently fabricated story.

In the commercial and common law world in which I inhabit it is the second category that arises from time to time.

26 …it has sometimes been said that for a statement to rebut a suggestion of recent invention, it must have been made ‘shortly after the event in question’ so as to rebut the suggestion that the witness testimony was a ‘belated concoction’.[… Dixon CJ said in The Nominal Defendant v Clements..that the statement was admissible if it was made by the witness ‘contemporaneously with the event or at a time sufficiently early to be inconsistent with the suggestion that the account is a late invention or reconstruction. But contemporaneity of the statement with the event in dispute is not essential. Expressions such as ‘recent invention’ ‘belated concoction’ ‘afterthought’ or ‘recent fabrication’ all presuppose some point of time after which it is suggested the statement was made so that a statement made at an earlier date consistent with the evidence alleged to be concocted will rebut such an allegation. The adjective ‘recent’ has been viewed a misnomer as the doctrine applies to any fabrication alleged to have occurred subject to the events in question but anterior to the trial…. In my view a statement will be admissible whenever made so long as it pre-dates the event said to provide the motive for the recent invention or the time when the recent fabrication is alleged to have occurred – so that it logically rebuts that suggestion…

His Honour has loosened the cord somewhat in determining when the prior consistent statement can be made.  Pushing it from an almost contemporaneous statement as Dixon J stated to any time which pre dates the time when the motive for recent invention arises.  or that the recent fabrication occurred.  That can throw up some very interesting fact situations.  It will certainly make for interesting cross examination in the future.

What is the purpose of a prior consistent statement.  It is not evidence of the truth of the contents of the statement.  It all goes to credibility.  As Redlich stated:

30 …whether ..the content of the prior consistent statement as evidence of its truth. Such evidence is admitted to restore the witnesses credibility… Its effect is to rebut the claim that the witness belatedly fabricated their account of events. As with evidence of ‘recent complaint’ the evidence is admitted as evidence of consistency of account which re-establishes or bolster the credibility of the witness. Such a previous consistent statement, once admitted, reinforces the witnesses credit and may be used in that way in considering the weight to be attached to the witnesses sworn evidence…
31 A hearsay statement admitted to prove a fact other than the truth of its contents, does not upon its admission become evidence in the case… Thus in Hughes v National Trustees, Executors and Agency Co of Australasia Ltd[30] the High Court whilst upholding the admissibility of statements by a testatrix about her son’s misconduct which were tendered to prove her reason for excluding him from her will, held that the statements were not evidence of the alleged misconduct. Similarly, evidence of recent complaint made out of court, is admissible as an exception to the hearsay rule because of its consistency with the witnesses testimony or conduct, the evidence having itself no probative value as to any fact in contest.[31]

A very interesting case where the Court of Appeal went through the Appellants appal points and knocked them over like so many skittles.  The Judge at First Instances decision held up and Dr Leek continued to have a very bad day at the office.

It is hard to believe that Stewart McArthur is into his 23rd year as a member for Corrangamite and is up for his 9th federal election.  Gawd!  That is 8 elections too many!  What has this guy done while he occupied a prime “made for a Minister” seat of Parliament?  The Liberal Party web site describes his huge commitments in the Parliament to:

During his time in the House, Stewart has served on a number of committees, including his current membership of the important Economics, Finance and Public Administration Committee. He is currently a Government Deputy Whip.

Brilliamt!  Now Corrangamite is borderline marginal and it is getting interest from the media.  The 7.30pm report covered the seat last night.  An excerpt:

STEWART MCARTHUR, FEDERAL MEMBER, CORANGAMITE: I’ve been representing the people of Corangamite for 23 years. I enjoy it, it’s a great privilege to be in the House of Representatives and I’m keen to have another go and I’m pretty fit, as you can see, each morning I’m out here running at about half-past six.

• The statement says it all.  He has been a long time in the job, he likes it and wants to enjoy the perks.  Nothing about achieving things.  A real journeyman politician.  All that is wrong with mediocre politicians holding onto good seats until the bitter end.

HEATHER EWART: Stewart McArthur loves to run along Geelong’s Barwon River with his loyal whippet, Oli. The long serving Liberal member for Corangamite has just turned 70. He’s one of the elders of Federal Parliament and it’s a title he wants to keep.

• What twaddle.  McArthur has been challenged regularly and he has held off all challenges through the efforts of his formidable wife. 

Today The World Today also analyzed Corangamite.
The local member Stewart McArthur has held the seat fairly comfortably for the last 23 years, but now it is one of the seats that Labor has its eye on as it seeks to form government.
…….

What he is saying he is committed to being a pollie and hanging in there at least as long as John Howard. 

Pollbludger has done a brilliant analysis of Corangamite both of the demographics, the candidates and the politics behind McArthur.  When I was working in Parliament House in Canberra I wondered what anyone saw in McArthur and what he actually did.  The question remains the same some 17 odd years later.

On June 30, 1559, King Henry II of France (1519-1559), against the advice of his court ministers, participated in a fateful joust. The wooden lance of his younger opponent pierced the King’s headgear, shattered into fragments, and penetrated his right orbit and temple.

So what’s the chances of a repeat occurence 449 years or so later.  Hell yes.  A real life reinactor died during a recreation of a joust.  As with unlucky Henry a splinter passes through the viser and into the poor bastards eye and then brain.  As for the treatment of Henry…

In a little less than an hour the polling for the election of Victorian Barristers representatives on the Victorian Bar Council closes.  If past history is any judge it will be composed of a generally conservative middle aged men and women who occasionally recce into the fashionable issues of the day.  Affirmative action and giving female barristers is flavour of the month thanks to the creeping activism of the Women’s Barristers Association. 

But back to the election.  The electoral rules and the voting system make little sense and belong to a byegone age.  A couple of for instances:

• No campaigning is permitted.  No brochures are allowed.  There isn’t even a policy statement included.  So it all comes down to recognition of a name on a ballot.  What is a potential member going to do for the rest?  Who knows.  Why?  Supposedly because the Bar is worried about a stack.  People still mutter darkly about a certain election way back into the 80s when a group organised and were spectacularly successful.  Gosh, taking the politics out of politics.
• First past the post voting system.  It is the least democratic of systems.  In a country where preferential or modified proportional is the norm the Bar hankers after a system where it is as likely as not that representatives have less than 50% (or even 20%) of the voters support. Of course that is pure speculation because the Bar doesn’t publish the results.  And that is the second inanity..
• The polls are not declared beyond announcing the winners.  How can a profession whose members spend a reasonable portion of their professional life working issues of  fairness and transparency into their arguments justify not publishing the results of a poll.  Somehow the good burghers do it.  Why?  When I asked I was told that it would discourage members from running again if they only posted a few votes.  Let’s get it right. The rough and tough advocates who take and give verbal punishment in negotiations, in writing and advocacy will wilt in the face of an electoral loss. Gimme a break!  It is a disgrace and one that should never have or continue to be tolerated.  And yet it is accepted.  Why… because of the membership.
• The weighting of the representatives to the senior end guarantee the “Father knows best” approach to issues.  Chronic conservatism rules OK 

So the polls will be declared and the system will grind on.  How ridiculous.  If any barrister had a brief to challenge the system he or she would have a field day.  The phrase “The Cobbler’s children go shoeless” springs to mind.

I can take Denton in small doses……just.  He is quick with the repartee, picks up any slip and runs with it.  But it still has that smarmy undergrad feel to it.  The “look at how quick am I” delivery followed by smirk.  He is smart and well read and very occasionally quite insightful.  But that doesn’t really come through in his interview style.  I don’t know why Denton is fast becoming an icon type interviewer, the  the Parkinson of Australia.  I think it is because his guests get such an arm chair ride over what they want to talk about.  Denton is fawning to the point of being obsequious.  In short  utterly woosy.  

The waifs are my all time favourite band.  They are very genuine performers.  In interview they were honest if a little vague.  It was poor form that the goils didn’t get  Josh up there to be part of the fun.  W

Here is the transcript, with a few deletions and a few editorials by yours truly:

It is the opposite of Australian Idol, a musical success story based on playing live, honing your craft and developing a following so big that radio has to play your songs. From The Waifs, please welcome sisters Donna Simpson and Vikki Thorn.

ANDREW DENTON: Welcome. Welcome to you both.

VIKKI THORN: Thank you.

ANDREW DENTON: Can we go way, way back? You lived grew up in is it Albany or Albany? I always get it wrong even though I’m from Western Australia.

DONNA SIMPSON: You’re from Western Australia?

VIKKI THORN: Hell.

DONNA SIMPSON: Where are you from?

ANDREW DENTON: It’s OK, you’re allowed to be.

DONNA SIMPSON: I know but…

ANDREW DENTON: I’m from Perth or as I pronounce it Proth.

VIKKI THORN: Yeah, it’s Albany.

ANDREW DENTON: Yes, so you grew up in Albany, but ah every salmon fishing season you would go down the beautifully named Cosy Corner, with your dad who went fishing for salmon, and it was a bit of a hippy, kava-loving experience.

VIKKI THORN: Yeah, we played in we played in vats of blood, and all these fish guts. Yeah, it happened sort of three months a year. And there’s three families that go out there, and we’re the third generation actually, so our our grandfather, and our father and and now us and ah the, they sit on the beach and they watch for schools of salmon coming along, and it’s a very old method of fishing. It hasn’t changed in 60 years.

ANDREW DENTON: We’ve got some footage here actually. This is, I think you took this ah Donna, of ah this is your dad pulling in…

VIKKI THORN: Oh yeah.

DONNA SIMPSON: Jimmy.

VIKKI THORN: Jimmy.

ANDREW DENTON: Jimmy pulling it in.

DONNA SIMPSON: Watch it, Jimmy. Watch it, watch it.

ANDREW DENTON: So you girls used to get down there and do all this as well.

VIKKI THORN: Oh we still do. Yeah. Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: You still haul in the salmon?

DONNA SIMPSON: Oh yeah, we we go every, every year to haul those great fish.

ANDREW DENTON: Are there any that you reject?

Gawd I hate that corniness.  Very undergrad. 

DONNA SIMPSON: No.

ANDREW DENTON: So ah Donna, you’re the, you’re the older. You’re three years, four years older than Vikki?

DONNA SIMPSON: I’m four years older than Vik.

ANDREW DENTON: Yeah, and as sisters growing up when you were in your teenage years was she the annoying younger sister, or were you close?

DONNA SIMPSON: I can’t really remember her, that much.

ANDREW DENTON: I think that answered the question.

DONNA SIMPSON: I remember Vik when she was about 16 or 17 wanting me to buy booze for her. And of course I didn’t.

ANDREW DENTON: Oh, you so did. Did you idolise Donna as younger sisters sometimes do?

DONNA SIMPSON: It it’s a similar thing. I think four years was enough for there to be, I mean I do remember Donna as I became a teenager. She was yeah, the big older sister that I wanted to hang out with and, but yeah, as a kid I have no memory of you whatsoever.

ANDREW DENTON: OK, so we’ve got plausible deniability on both sides here. It was at Cosy Corner that your dad first handed you a guitar, and that that was like an immediate marriage for you wasn’t it?

“It was amazing because suddenly, you know I was 15 years old, and I hated school, and I wasn’t doing well, and suddenly I found something I could do, and that just blew my mind and by the end of the first day of playing guitar I was playing Bob Dylan songs.”

VIKKI THORN: Oh yeah. We probably don’t need the guitar. I don’t know, do you know the chords for this?

VIKKI THORN: This was the first song. You know this one?

ANDREW DENTON: Yep.

VIKKI THORN: Well sing along.

ANDREW DENTON: No, you don’t want my harmonies let me tell you. Dogs heads explode.

VIKKI THORN: That was the first song.

ANDREW DENTON: That was, so what an amazing moment. You suddenly realised you could do this high harmony line. Did you look around going who did that?

VIKKI THORN: Yeah, I did a little bit the first time, yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: Wow. And then you ended up ah playing in pubs, of course when you were over age.

VIKKI THORN: No, no, well that was the thing. I, I really wanted to do it from that point because I was underage, and I thought what a great opportunity. I can go to the pubs before any of my friends can and that was really my, you know, my focus, more than singing.

ANDREW DENTON: That’s honourable. However, once you dominated Albany it was time to move. Tell the story when you were 20 you, you turned up at Vikki’s school in a yellow Kombi. What was the plan?

DONNA SIMPSON: I’d said to Vikki, you know, we should go round Australia. Let’s, let’s just get out of here, let’s go travelling. You know, we were from this town where if we saw a car come through from over east with eastern states numberplates, I mean I would just look at these cars and think wow, they’re from over east. They’re from Sydney and, and Wollongong and…you know and it was it was really exciting for us. So I bought this old van and I went and picked her up from school…

VIKKI THORN: My last day at school.

DONNA SIMPSON: And she couldn’t believe it, her last day of school. And I said “Look what I’ve got. This is it. We’re going”. And we left a few weeks later.

ANDREW DENTON: Had either of you left the town before really?

VIKKI THORN: No, I mean you know on family holidays but never, it was a huge adventure.

DONNA SIMPSON: No, not by ourselves.

ANDREW DENTON: You must have just thought this was one of the great days. Two girls in a campervan have asked me back for a shower, and to travel with them for the rest of my life.

JOSH: It was definitely a turning point for me.

ANDREW DENTON: Turning or turn on?
And back to the undergrad sex allusion.  Tedious is the word.  An Algonquin round tabler he aint.

VIKKI THORN: Hell. Yeah, I think after you live with people for a long time you don’t tend to treat them with the respect that maybe you should when you’re living with in such close quarters. And Donna and I being sisters, you know women when they live together their menstrual cycles sort of hook up and you’ve got PMT at the same time, that’s hell, you know.

JOSH: I’ll vouch for that.

ANDREW DENTON: I was going to, they would have been, they would have been happy, happy days for you Josh.

JOSH: Very happy.

ANDREW DENTON: So when did it reach its lowest point on the road for you guys? Was there a moment?

DONNA SIMPSON: I think yeah, it was the end of ’93, I think…

DONNA SIMPSON: I actually kept saying to, Josh and Vikki they were having this big argument in the van, and I kept saying, ‘I’m leaving. I’m leaving. I’m leaving, you know.’ They just didn’t hear me.

ANDREW DENTON: And it was around this time that you got the name ‘The Waifs’, wasn’t it? That was that was given to you, really.

DONNA SIMPSON: Yeah, we, we, things got really tough on the road, so we all decided to go home and Josh went to his family, and virtually walked into the house and his grandmother said “Oh look at my waif, my waif”. And then we went home to our family and our grandmother said “Oh here come the waifs”. And like…

VIKKI THORN: Yeah, here come my little waifs she said.

DONNA SIMPSON: My little waifs.

VIKKI THORN: Meaning I guess that we were a little dishevelled, dirty and homeless looking.

ANDREW DENTON: It could have been worse. They could have said you little shits.
And here is where another bout of Dentonesque humour first year uni style kicked in… again.

VIKKI THORN: Well, actually I think it was her way of saying that.

DONNA SIMPSON: We could have been…

ANDREW DENTON: The Shits, yes.
And the scatalogical references continue…. It is so rare that you can use that word but Denton is the gift that keeps on giving in that regard.

DONNA SIMPSON: We could have been The Shits.
Not that Donna helped. 

ANDREW DENTON: Be a great intro wouldn’t it. “Ladies and gentlemen, The Shits.”
And again…..

DONNA SIMPSON: Oh damn, why didn’t we think of that?
And she has a bogan moment

ANDREW DENTON: I’m very glad for you that you didn’t. Where, you’ve spent all these years playing other peoples songs and you knew hundreds of them. You could gig for seven or eight hours. When did you realise hey, hang on, we can write our own music?

VIKKI THORN: Ah Josh, I remember after a big argument, he hitched out of Broome one time and went for a eh a holiday in the Kimberley’s, and he came back and he’d written three or four songs. And he wouldn’t sing to us at the time. He was too shy, so he just sort of had to pluck out the melody on the guitar. Donna, you wrote ‘Crazy Train’, which is a song that we play in our set today.

ANDREW DENTON: Can you give us a burst of ‘Crazy Train’?

DONNA SIMPSON: Oh, oh can we?

ANDREW DENTON: Does that require full orchestration?

DONNA SIMPSON: No, no, we we’ll do it.

VIKKI THORN: I can’t do my harmonica though.

DONNA SIMPSON: Oh no, we can’t do it.

VIKKI THORN: It’s a minor. It’s going to sound really weird. Sounds like a train with sort of one wheel off the track.

DONNA SIMPSON: What key is that in?

VIKKI THORN: It’s A minor.

DONNA SIMPSON: Oh why don’t you do ‘Papa’? Want to do ‘Papa’?

VIKKI THORN: What do you want?

ANDREW DENTON: No, I eh just entertain me.

DONNA SIMPSON: Sing your ‘Papa’ song.

ANDREW DENTON: In the style of ‘The Shits’.
He can be so irritating.  He drops that careful consoling understanding soft spoken style he has perfected and becomes a square headed version of a Jack Russell puppy.

ANDREW DENTON: No, that’s… And what I like about that is it’s uplifting. Is that you wrote that song?

VIKKI THORN: Yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: That sounds like it comes from the negro blues tradition from about 1920s.

DONNA SIMPSON: That was the music we listened to as we were travelling around. We listened to a lot of Sonny Terry, Brownie McGee and lot of black gospel music.

ANDREW DENTON: Most bands, they get management, get a song, hope it’ll get on the radio and they’ll tour off the back of that. You did it quite the opposite. You didn’t have management. You toured and toured and toured and toured. Ah, you set up your own distribution company off the back, off the campervan, and eventually you got radio play. Eh and in fact you did it in conjunction with John Butler, didn’t you? You formed a record label together the two of you.

DONNA SIMPSON: Yeah, yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: Did you ever consider whether or not this was the the wise way to do it, to do it what some would consider the hard way?

DONNA SIMPSON: No, this was this was the way we were doing it.

VIKKI THORN: It was the only way.

DONNA SIMPSON: It’s the only way we knew that we were going to do it, wasn’t it? I mean we we were playing music origin, initially to travel so we didn’t have to pick fruit to go round Australia. That’s why we wanted to, to you know play.

VIKKI THORN: It was just a natural progression. Yeah, we got…

DONNA SIMPSON: It was, it was very natural wasn’t it?

VIKKI THORN: We, we made a tape. We sold the tape. We kept the money from the tape to make an album and then we had an album

ANDREW DENTON: So who whose the boss?

DONNA SIMPSON: Vikki.

ANDREW DENTON: And why is Vikki the boss?

VIKKI THORN: Why am I the boss?

DONNA SIMPSON: Because she’s very bossy.

Here it got really interesting.  There was a real tension.  It wasn’t what was said but the way things were said and the gestures.  Very very telling. 

DONNA SIMPSON: She is. She’s very bossy and very controlling.

ANDREW DENTON: Vikki are you the boss?

VIKKI THORN: I wouldn’t think I, maybe I was like that at some stage. I don’t think I am now.

DONNA SIMPSON: I mean it nicely. Like you are the boss.

VIKKI THORN: OK. I am. Sure, I’ll take it.

ANDREW DENTON: All right, so first of all, what is it most you secretly love about each other?

VIKKI THORN: Oh that’s a nice question. I, it’s not much of a secret but I, Donna’s a very, very generous person and I love that about her because I’m not naturally inclined to be gen, generous, and I admire that in her very much.

DONNA SIMPSON: Thank you. Yeah, you can have that as well.

DONNA SIMPSON: I think Vikki, Vikki has a really good head on her shoulders. And she’s a lot smarter than she gives out, and she has a great sense of humour, that most people don’t get to see. And she’s a brilliant mother, as well.

VIKKI THORN: Oh that’s nice.

DONNA SIMPSON: Yeah. Now get your gear off.

About here I came to the conclusion that the less Donna says the better.  She is a really hippy chick but rough and getting rougher. 

ANDREW DENTON: I’m easy. And what is it about each other drives you mad?

DONNA SIMPSON: Oh. I hate, I hate Vikki, this is what drives me mad about Vikki is, she’s always cutting me off. She’s always, cut me off or cutting me down. In front of people, yeah.

ANDREW DENTON: Cut you down. In what way?

DONNA SIMPSON: Um.

VIKKI THORN: Tell the Dylan story.

VIKKI THORN: I get a bit emotional still when I sing that song.

ANDREW DENTON: Actually I went all gooey then, and it wasn’t even my grandmother. That’s beautiful. That really is lovely. What’s ironic is that you, you grandmother went off to America to marry her man. You both found husbands in America as well. You both live there.

VIKKI THORN: I love being home. I love being a mother. It it’s brought a new depth and fulfilment in my life and I enjoy playing music so much more since I’ve, I have that aspect.

ANDREW DENTON: What about you Donna? What eh what has having a little boy mean?

DONNA SIMPSON: Same.

ANDREW DENTON: Same for you?

DONNA SIMPSON: Yeah, it is. It’s very similar, and I just I love that they’re so musical already the kids, you know…

ANDREW DENTON: What a fantastic thing you’ve got to give them though. There’s no better gift.

DONNA SIMPSON: Yeah, the and they’re three three little boys, and they’re all you know little cousins.

DONNA SIMPSON: We ah had our babies three days apart.

ANDREW DENTON: Did something one particular night?
Yeah the girls all played along but it was just plain tacky.  And I like risque jokes.  But this was just corny and undergrad.

VIKKI THORN: Yep. It begs the question doesn’t it?

DONNA SIMPSON: It was the same night. We’d finished playing a gig at our…

VIKKI THORN: In Albany.

DONNA SIMPSON: In Albany, our hometown at a winery. Ah and it it was a great night. It was just full of family and friends and…

ANDREW DENTON: Another thing beginning with F.
Irritating is the word

ANDREW DENTON: I’m with you.

DONNA SIMPSON: Fidelity.

ANDREW DENTON: Look, it’s been so much fun. It’s been just gorgeous. Lovely to hear you play as well, and thank you as well, Josh. I know you’re coming back to Australia later in the year. I hope it’s a fantastic tour. Have beautiful children, thank you very much.

VIKKI THORN: Thanks, thank you.

I have my tickets to the concert on 3 October at the Forum.  They are briliant.  Better than in interview.  Check out their site at www.waifs.com.au